Radical Courage - 3 Women Willing to Pay the Price to Put Children First

A lot of people want to help vulnerable children, but few of us stop to ask the hardest question: what if we are the problem? Our support of children in adversity could be fueling family separation and making the situation worse. Dr. Laura Horvath sits down with Dr. Rebecca Nhep (Better Care Network) and Elli Oswald (Faith to Action Initiative) to unpack “radical courage” in global child welfare and care reform. 

Our guests discuss how embracing truth required us to change long-held assumptions with humility, publicly challenge orphanage models,  and face our own culpability in power dynamics. They candidly share when being courageous made them the focus of uncomfortable power dynamics within their communities and careers.

Elli reflects on the courage of families on the ground, including parents navigating poverty, disability, and lack of services who may see residential care as their only option. Rebecca pushes us to reframe the common “abandonment” narrative and to take an honest inward look at the stories that make donors feel like saviors. Rebecca and Elli share their views on the topic addressed in our prior episode  (Barna Study) . She talks about how research on Christian support for institutional care reflects both positive and negative trends for change.She explains why action is slow to follow belief, why boldness must stay compassionate, how change requires listening well before speaking, and speaking with kindness presumed.

Then we get practical about donor responsibility, the power attached to money, and what mutual partnership requires when evidence points toward family-based care, deinstitutionalization, and stronger child protection systems. We also address the “rice pot” problem of fundraising and marketing, plus the real safeguarding risks that can emerge when children become the commodity. The goal stays simple and demanding: keep a North Star on children’s best interests, even when it costs us comfort, reputation, or relationships.

If you care about family strengthening, care system reform, and ethical missions and development, press play, then subscribe, share this with someone in your church or nonprofit, and leave a rating and review so more people can find the conversation.

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Transcript

Welcome And Core Values

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Welcome to Optimistic Voices, a podcast of helping children worldwide. We help children worldwide by strengthening and empowering families and communities. This podcast is for people interested in deep conversations with thought leaders in the fields of child welfare, global health, and international missions.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Welcome to the Optimistic Voices Podcast. I'm your host, Laura Horbath and in this episode, I'm going to be talking to two very good friends, Ellie Oswald and Rebecca Knapp. We're doing a little bit of a departure from kind of our issues-focused episodes for this one. And here's why. At Helping Children Worldwide, our work is grounded in four core values: radical honesty, radical trust, radical collaboration, and radical courage. And this month, we're focusing on courage and what it means to live that value out in the work of global child welfare and care reform. Courage is the most important of all the virtues because without courage, you can't practice any other virtue consistently. That line is a favorite of mine from favored author Maya Angelou, and it's always stuck with me. C.S. Lewis said something similar that courage is not just one virtue among others, but the form of every virtue takes at its testing point. I think that rings especially true in Global Child Welfare and Carrie Forum. This work is rooted in compassion, hope, and deep commitment to children and families, but it's also work that asks us to confront hard truths, challenge long-held assumptions, and sometimes let go of approaches that feel familiar, even when we know they're not the best answer. And that is where radical courage comes in: the courage to tell the truth, the courage to change, the courage to keep choosing what is right for children and families, even when it is difficult, costly, or misunderstood. So in this episode, we're asking, what does radical courage actually look like in this field? And why does it matter so much right now?

Why Courage Sits At The Center

SPEAKER_02 2:15

On the episode, we have with us Dr. Rebecca Knapp, the Senior Technical Advisor for Better Care Network, a global convener to influence action for children without rental care or at risk of separation. She has 26 years of experience working in the international development and child protection sectors, focusing on child protection and care systems reforms. Rebecca is a leading expert on the transition of residential care services and orphanage trafficking. She's the co-chair of several global working groups under the Transforming Children's Care Global Platform, including the Transitioning Residential Care Working Group and Rethink Orphanages. Rebecca has a PhD in law and postgraduate qualifications in international development, international law, and anthropology. And her primary research areas include child institutionalization, orphanage volunteerism, and orphanage trafficking. Also with us is Ellie Oswell, the Executive Director of Faith to Action Initiative. Prior to this role, she served as the director of mission and outreach at Bethany Community Church in Seattle, where she guided Bethany Community Church and various ministries to the poor and vulnerable in Seattle and around the world. Ellie also serves as the Children in Crisis Research and Communications Coordinator for World Vision International's Child Development and Rights Technical Team, specializing in community-based care for children deprived of parental care. She has a BA from Pepperdine and an MA in cross-cultural studies and international development from Fuller Theological Seminary. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Thank you so much for having us, Laura.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Great to be here. Thanks, Laura.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

I want to let our listeners know too that we are not only spanning the globe here. We are coming to you from Rebecca, where are you coming from?

SPEAKER_04 4:01

I am calling in from Sydney in Australia today.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

And it's Thursday. No, it's Wednesday for you.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

It is Wednesday morning here. So I know I'm speaking to you on your Tuesday afternoon, but it is Wednesday for me.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

And it's 5 p.m. here for me and on the East Coast. And Ellie, where are you calling from?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I'm over in Washington State,

Meet The Guests Across The Globe

SPEAKER_01 4:20

the real Washington, I like to call it.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

So let's get let's dive in. When you hear the phrase radical courage in the context of your work in global child welfare and care reform, Ellie, what comes to mind for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:33

When I think about courage, for me, I think about actually families on the ground. That's what motivates me in this work as well. You hear stories of families in deep crisis really struggling to provide for their children. And individuals, whether it's a grandma or an uncle or auntie or neighbor or a mother taking bold steps to figure out how they can care well for their child. In the work we do to see children thrive in families, there's always this risk of a child being placed in an orphanage or a children's home. And so I'm incredibly encouraged by the stories I get to hear so often. Um when a I just heard one recently. And he took those children to the orphanage. And that orphanage was in the middle of shifting the way they cared for children and seeing them in families. So they journeyed with that father to say, what's going on? What are the real problems? What can we do to help these child remain with you? And they came up with incredibly creative solutions, including a local farmer was going to take them to school, um, things like that, where people just at the local level are stepping up when there's times of crisis and fear. Um, so that's really what motivates me, but also incredibly encouraged by individuals who grew up in orphanages and children's homes, who now are out there advocating at even in their own communities, but at the national level, at the global level, sharing their very personal stories about um how they were raised and what they hope for the future of generations of children to be raised and given the opportunity to be in families. So people who are willing to go out there, share their some of the hardest parts of their life or not, just their perspective are incredibly encouraging to me as well. That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Yeah, I think two things. One kind of pivoting off what Ellie shared is thinking about the courage it takes for a parent to actually take their child to an orphanage when they deeply love that child, but they from often for reasons of poverty or access to services, don't feel like in their current context, they can give their child what they deeply hope for as a parent. And I think often, you know, from our perspectives in in Western countries where we might be looking at this through the lens of partners or donors, we don't necessarily understand or see the behavior of parents in those situations as courage. Often it's framed to us as abandonment, um, that these parents are abandoning their children. Actually, that's pretty rare. And, you know, in the work that I've done when I've had the opportunity to meet with these parents, I am hearing of these absolutely intense internal wrestles that are courageous because they're having to make choices between a rock and a hard place. I love my child deeply, but I also want my child to be able to escape poverty and I cannot see another way. So I think part of courage here is reframing or really understanding that story. But then the second part is for us to be deeply humble and deeply reflective on ourselves and say, hang on, what's going on that the system around these children and families is actually putting parents in that position? Why are parents who deeply love their children having to go through that incredibly difficult process and make those difficult decisions? Why aren't there other options for those children? They're reflecting back on ourselves and having the courage and humility to look behind the veil and say, what is the system? What's going on? What role am I playing potentially in unintentionally perpetuating a system that's actually separating families who deeply love each other and want to be together? So I think that understanding the story on the ground, but then that deep humility

Courage In Families On The Ground

SPEAKER_04 8:30

to say, you know what, I'm gonna look, I'm going to challenge and I'm going to address and redress whatever needs to happen in order for there to be a different set of opportunities and options for those families on the ground that mean families staying together.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

I think both of those postures are going to be surprising to people listening to see, you know, the courage it takes a mother to face the gut-wrenching choice of this is the only option that I can see that that is in alignment with what I want for my child, what's best for my child. And then the courage it takes to take a deep hard look inward, um, which is not something that I think that um that we often think about, you know, what what is my role in propping this up potentially?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

The reality is when it comes to changing the way we care for kids around the world, it's kind of easy for those of us who are in this world to assume we're making great progress. And we are, we are making great progress. And I'll I'll lean into that. But also the challenge to bring about the change that we hope to see for children is the Christian support for residential care is still huge. Um, $4.5 billion. Billion with a B. And I joke, but when I first heard these stats, I had to Google how much is a billion, because a billion is a lot. It's even hard to comprehend. And that's coming from the US Christian space specifically, just individuals, not churches, not foundations. We have some estimates around how much is coming just from Christians in the UK, but church planters in Africa still see the goal of having an orphanage next year church as you know, the way to show that your church is doing well. Like Christians, especially those of those who are a part of that tradition in this conversation, we have a lot of work to do. And it's gonna require boldness, it's gonna require um us wrestling with this. Um, in so many ways, it's Christians who brought institutionalization of children through colonial progress and missionaries and things like that, all well intended. Um, and we've cut we've kind of created a problem that we aren't solving. So it's gonna take boldness um and radical courage to be able to um to bring our brothers and sisters along. And one thing I just want to mention early on, as I was thinking about this topic, is that it's really important that we talk about radical courage doesn't mean you can be mean to people. Um, that in fact, it probably means more than anything we can be bold with kindness and compassion. Um, most people who are deeply involved in residential care specifically do it because they have a deep emotional connection. They get joy and satisfaction from being a part of helping people. And that's good. I think that's a gift from God. Um, but and we we shouldn't have to make them feel bad to help them feel excited about something else. Um, and I really believe we need to do the work to meet them where they are and to understand what's motivating them, to understand what their fears are, and avoid our own quick judgment. And the reason I'm saying this just because I've felt it for many, many, many times over the years as I've engaged people on this topic. I want to quickly put somebody in a box. Okay, they're now my enemy or whatever. And we have to really push ourselves not to do that. Because one, it's not effective, and two, it's not honoring of the history of the church in our involvement and care for children. So I think it's really important to recognize the challenge is huge, um, but it still needs to be addressed with boldness and compassion um to really meet people where they're at and bring them along.

SPEAKER_04 12:25

Yeah, I would add to that and say some of the reasons why courage, this radical courage that you're, you know, unpacking and promoting here, um, why it's so important and what exactly are we being asked to face and turn that courage towards, it's it's necessary because that inward gaze that we sort of touched on just earlier is deeply uncomfortable. Like that takes courage. It's you know, in a lot of the narratives around how we engage with people in other countries, how we outwork our desire to help people who may be in situations of disadvantage or less fortunate or whatever that that situation might be, our desire to engage with that is situated in kind of a narrative that's about help, good, doing good, altruism. Um, and in that story, we play a particular role, we play a benevolent role, we play the role of helper. Sometimes that narrative gets kind of put in the light of savior, you know, and so there's these narratives that are built around it. We're kind of comfortable with that. But in this situation, we're actually being asked to look inward and we're being asked to say, well, hang on, what role am I playing? And is it the role that I thought I was playing? And hang on, this is a bit uncomfortable. So it's not this neat story about you know a person that requires help and someone providing that help through through whatever it might be, through setting up an orphanage or donating to an orphanage or whatever. It's actually a little bit more complicated than that. It's hang on, am I complicit in part of the challenge and the problem here? And so when you're asking people to engage with that, that's that's point blank uncomfortable. You're not sitting in this normal kind of lane that we like of saying, I I can give and I can feel good because I'm doing something positive and I'm helping. Now all of a sudden we have to shift, we have to pivot. That requires an inward gaze. It requires us to actually ask ourselves, where is where is this coming from? You know, as individuals, as churches, as organizations. What's what is perpetuating this? And one of the things is, as Ellie alluded to, there's research, there's a lot of research out there. We we actually have a lot of information that shows that supporting children in residential care isn't in their best interest. It's generally in most instances not actually responding to the underlying needs, um, which are often poverty, education access, um, marginalization, a range of things. And it doesn't actually help children. It has it's associated with a lot of different detriments over children and young people's whole lifespan. So we know that. So therefore, when we ask why is it so hard to change? And I think part of this inward gaze is the reason why, and that takes so much courage and to look at what narratives are underneath this. Ellie already alluded to it. These are long-standing, deep-seated narratives. They have, you know, they have mindsets and ideologies below them that are connected to things like colonialism and othering, and you know, these um, these kind of older narratives around who are the deserving poor and who are not the deserving poor. And often we put children in one category and parents in another. And that perpetuates the way we then engage and support. Reflecting on whether we carry those, on whether they're kind of underlying in any way to our own motivations. My goodness, talk about uncomfortable. To be able to do that and sit with that and legitimately

Parents, Poverty, And Misread Motives

SPEAKER_04 15:50

wrestle with that within us in order to create sustainable change, that requires courage. A lot more courage than sacrificing funding or money to to give towards something. That process is super uncomfortable, but that's where we're up to. That's what we need to be doing together as communities.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

It strikes me that you're um kind of talking around this idea that I have about it's it's it's kind of a discipling. It's a kind of um coming alongside and and helping people to do that, that hard, courageous, inward-looking piece. And how much of that, how we see ourselves in the role of helper, um, is has become an in-green part of our identity. And when you start unpacking the pieces that are embedded in your identity, how painful that can be, um, and how courageous you have to be to do that. Um, it is really complicated. And it's much more complicated than, you know, well, hey, don't write your check to this, write it to that, right? Correct. Um, it's a lot more internal than that.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

Absolutely. When when someone has to, and you know, we all find this, right? Um the more invested someone has been, the more courage is required for that process. Um, and so there's this also this really almost counterproductive connection between how invested someone is in helping children, and if they've done that long term, then the the interest in doing so is amazing, and we want to encourage and capture that and support that. But redirecting it is doubly hard because of the investment that they have made potentially in a methodology that does need to change, um, makes that a very difficult thing. And again, requires such um, you know, radical courage. Radical courage.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah. I think um to your point about being gentle, Ellie, with um with folks in this in this space, um, it strikes me how easily this work can pivot people um into shame and guilt. Um, when where I think you want people maybe wrestling with the harder piece of this is a kind of regret that says um that that'll kind of allows you to say, I did the best I knew how to do. And now that I know better, I would do it differently. Um, and that's just a really delicate path to get people onto.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

So oh, it is. As you as I started to think more about this topic, I was just like, this is so hard and not something we can easily, you know, cover in an hour. But I think um definitely building off of this inward gaze and the discomfort there, I think it takes courage to have humility. Um, you know, yes. To truly like admit that you don't know everything, that you don't have all the answers, not only all the answers, but even some of the answers you do have might be wrong. Um, that your organization that you fundraise for, or that you've lyrics love that they maybe um don't have all the answers or aren't the the answer to the bigger problem that you need other people, um, that we have to rely on other people. Um, that's all courageous to to take that posture in the world. And I think what it I love curious people and I've grown to become more curious. I used to just want to know the answers and was really frustrated when I didn't, but then I was really satisfied with this posture of learning. Like I get to learn and uh being able to shift from that defensiveness to a space where we're setting aside assumptions and and curio curiously pursuing what uh other uh answers are there is really where we want people to get to, right? And that often means, I mean, I'm saying this for myself. And I think that's a big part of it is Rebecca and I aren't these people that know it all that are telling you how to be courageous. Like in every meeting that I have with someone in this space, I have something to learn from them. And I am constantly learning from them, even if it's a hard thing. Um uh and I think it's really important that we approach everything that we're engaging. Yeah, we might have a little more experience in one area or another, but that doesn't mean I don't need to be shaped by this person in front of me. Um, and it can be uncomfortable, but it can also be incredibly exciting and wonderful. And so, and I think a lot of the way you get there is asking questions of each other and putting yourself out there. This is something I was thinking about. What do you think about it? Instead of being like, this is something I'm thinking about and it's right, and this is why it's right, and you should agree with me, um, be open to hearing back and learning from people. Um, but it isn't, it isn't easy.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Yeah, that's fun.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

I like the idea of um embracing curiosity as a pathway to finding you know more humility. And it occurs to me as we're talking about this inward look and this, you know, wrestling, inward wrestling with this, that we're inviting people to um get out of a rescuer role that kind of puts them a little bit uh higher for lack of a better way to explain it, and into a much more humble receiving um space. And I think that's also a good place for people to explore. Yeah, definitely. Where do you see the greatest need for radical courage today? Um, in the sector or in leadership or in the way that we're responding to children and families.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Yeah, for me, I would say I think we need radical lead radical leadership, radical courage in leadership. This whole sort of space around how vulnerable children are being cared for, the use of residential care under whatever name, Orphanese Children Center, Children's Village, as a response to a whole broad range of vulnerabilities in childhood that you know unintentionally separates children from the very support system they need. Their family and their community with long-term detriment, it is a system of power, as all systems are. And therefore, within that, you know, although it encompasses a whole range of people and actors who are part of it, children and families, local communities, churches, local organizations that might run services, including orphanages, partners overseas, donors, missionaries, missions agencies, parachurch organizations, individual donors. There's a whole range of people who are involved in the system, but there's also a structure and a power dynamic that's going on here. And it's another one of those uncomfortable topics that requires courage to approach and embrace and think about and talk about. And that is the power associated with resource, the power associated with money. And so within this system, um, there those who have the resource and are directing that resource towards particular responses have a higher level of power. And we don't necessarily want to acknowledge that. Often we want to say, no, as a funder or a donor or a supporting organization, I'm getting behind. I am, I am resourcing and enabling and empowering. Yes, but the way you choose to make decisions with that resource is a significant form of power in this space. And it's directive power. And we need to understand that. Therefore, those who have those resources to give, and thank goodness there are people who want to give resources into this space, and we we honor that and deeply appreciate that. But there's a responsibility that comes with that power of having resource, and that responsibility is to understand the power that it has and to use it wisely and appropriately and for the best interests of children. Um, so we often will engage with a lot of people who say, Well, I'm not comfortable having that conversation with my partner as the donor or the funding partner. I'm not comfortable broaching this topic of what's in the best interest of children, what does the research and evidence say around the best approaches? What are the harms of perpetuating residential care and orphanage models? Because I'm I'm I want to sort of stay in the background, but they're not acknowledging that the power that that resource already has in the way that it's already directing the conversation. And we need to actually have that conversation. We need to have the courage to actually talk about that and say, actually, you're already in that position, and therefore you need to really understand how to use that in a way to reorientate these services towards better outcomes for children. So it requires acknowledging the power, taking responsibility for that power, re-reframing the way we see ourselves when that's the role we play. Um, but then having the courage to have those challenging conversations with our partners who we might be financially investing in, to say, I think then there's a different way that needs to be explored here. Um, and we need to take that step. So that all requires a serious amount of courage to acknowledge that in ourselves and then actually outwork that responsibility to create change in the lives of children and families, potentially in another country.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, Beck, that's so good. I think of um so many examples of this, um, where we see um honestly, I think it's like a phase two of our wouldn't helping hurts reaction. I work often with the US church and I used to be a pastor in missions. And so the um the first kind of phase was oh my goodness, as a donor, you know, I could cause harm. I have to respect the local people. I have to just do whatever they tell me. And one of the most obvious examples of that was um someone that you guys know, but I'll keep it anonymous. Um, they were funding an orphanage, um, and they worked with um leaders on the ground and were making progress towards transition, towards seeing children in safe and loving families. But there was this other donor that um was not

Christian Support For Orphanages Explained

SPEAKER_01 26:00

willing to have be in the conversation in the US. It was a church-based donor. And um the when they finally were willing to come to the table after being hesitant to talk to their fellow donor about this orphanage that they both support, when they finally were willing to come to the table, their argument was we don't tell our partners what to do. And you guys are, and you're there for this like colonial patriarch, um, you know, power. And it was like, what kind of partnership is it when you can't have a conversation about what's working for kids? And I think the next phase in that conversation for those who are responsible for funds to serve children and families around the world is to go, okay, well, what does mutuality and relationship, what does God honoring mutuality and relationship really look like? And that means we we have to be able to have those conversations. Um, and I think it is a bigger challenge than we realize for many donors out there is really being to be able to develop a relationship of honesty cross-culturally that allows them to get there.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Yeah, that's such a good example, Ellie. And I think it's important that we acknowledge that in this particular space, the resources are to a large extent driving the perpetuation of residential care. It's not like, you know, sometimes we think, well, you know, there's a local solution that's being identified as needed and we're going to come along with the resource. Actually, the resources are sitting in front of that conversation, in that often there's already an understanding that potentially, you know, particularly in Western countries, that there is a strong appetite for funding orphanages and there is a resource that can be tapped into for that purpose. And so the kind of knowledge, the in-general knowledge that this is something that, you know, organizations and individuals in in particular countries are very interested in funding actually determines the establishment of that particular service, that orphanage or whatnot. And we may not understand that. It's already driving the conversation. And therefore, the funding component, needs and the power associated is really critical in driving the change. Um, and so I think again, a very difficult conversation. These are difficult issues to surface. They make us all feel a bit uncomfortable, but we have to, we have to have the courage to look at this and talk about that and acknowledge those things. We have to acknowledge that, you know, if someone that you mentioned it earlier, Ellie, about sometimes there's a perception that having a church and the orphanage next to each other is the model. In in in Myanmar, we talk about it as the trifecta, church Bible school orphanage. And, you know, and and no disrespect to local pastors. They're trying to run their ministries and they understand if they have these three pieces, they'll be able to attract Western funding that they need for the church. And so they'll set the orphanage up and there's all this conflation between them, not because they're bad people necessarily, but because they they believe they want to have this church. They feel called to have this church, and they understand the only way they can fund that is by also attacking an orphanage onto it. These are the uncomfortable truths we have to wrestle with to understand how to disentangle this system and actually move it towards one that genuinely supports children and families and puts them first.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Yeah. Yeah. I was in, I was presenting on short-term missions at a US missions conference. So these are mostly US people that were hoping to go out on mission or were already out globally. And um there was one African in the room, and he went to both my sessions on short-term missions. And I thought, you know, he's gonna love this. Um, and afterwards, he came up and he's like, I get you with the whole family-based care thing. And he explained to me his country, what's going on, and you know, it's usually it's mostly boarding school, and that's why we do this. And and he's like, But do not tell them to stop visiting, they won't give to us if they stop if if they stop visiting, and then we won't be able to do all the good things we're doing in the community. They have to take their mission trip to the orphanage. And I was shocked, it stuck with me, obviously remembering it years ago. But he so blatantly and boldly um was telling me, you know, we we use mission trips to the orphanage so people will finally give to the good work that we want to do in the community. Um, and you know, that's just one example, but we know from around the world those power dynamics are real.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Yeah, that's um really powerful to have it just set out out that blatantly. I mean, and it's just so it's so real, right? It's a lot to entangle. Um it strikes me you were talking about the um the orphanage um and the western founders that were like, we don't tell uh our partners what to do. And I think that instinct is a good instinct um at its heart or at its core. Um but Melody said to me one time that um, you know, if you're withholding resources and the and the resource is knowledge, um the resources is best practice, it's um it's access to research that that demonstrates that kids do better in families, and you're withholding that because you're afraid of being colonialistic with your partner, that's as damaging. Um, and that's not fair either. And so, you know, how we get to have those sometimes in relationship, you have to have hard, true conversations. You have to have the courage to say difficult things or to surface difficult things. Um, and I think that having the courage to have a real relationship um with partners on the ground that allow you to have these conversations is really, really important.

SPEAKER_04 31:49

So it's so important. And the other thing that I've seen many times is you're absolutely right. With holding knowledge when your partner, what's the purpose of the partnership? It's just to help children. And so knowledge that can help to enable that to be even better, to be done in a way that's better is important knowledge and resources for that partnership. But the other thing we find a lot is that local partners may be fully aware of what's in the best interest of children. They already know these changes are necessary, as Ellie alluded to in her previous example. Um, they are in many cases uh hesitant to raise the conversation with their donor because they they're worried that the donor will actually stop funding if they stop the model. If they recommend or suggest or ask to propose to change the model towards family-based care, towards supporting children to remain with their families and strengthening families who are experiencing vulnerability, they're worried that their donor partner will stop. And if they stop, they can no longer help anybody. And so it's not not always just the knowledge, sometimes it's the unwillingness to broach the conversation from one side might mean you get stuck in this status quo because the other party who already has come to the same conclusion is also concerned because of the power dynamic. And so, excuse me. Um sorry about that, you're gonna have to cut that bit out. Um, yeah, so sometimes you know, we need to broach that conversation so that our partner on the field can actually also bring their knowledge to the table because we've got to acknowledge the power dynamic. When the resources are there, there's a power dynamic there. And one example of that was um there was a church in Australia we were talking to who were funding an orphanage in Myanmar. We were having all these conversations with them, and they were going to go on a trip because they love this partner on the ground who was running an orphanage in a church. They've been funding them for years, they didn't want to have the conversation over the phone, so they got on a plane and they went over. And the partner, who was a pastor, beautiful man, picked this, you know, church pastor from Australia up in a taxi. And the first thing he said, this is the local pastor saying to the donor, Pastor, I need to talk to you. This orphanage model isn't what's good for children. We need to change. So both of them landed in the same place. I know it was amazing, but they both had to take that step of radical courage to say, I'm gonna broach this conversation, not knowing how the other party's gonna react because I'm making a choice to put children at the center of this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

It strikes me that um this might flip Americans upside down a little bit, but we think about um radical courage as the things we're gonna say um and the conversations we're gonna lead and have. And sometimes radical courage looks like being quiet and listening.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Amen. That's what I'm talking about. There, you know, there are organizational leaders who um are making this change happen, right? And I think that uh they have been incredibly bold. And again, I get to see them all the time and hear their stories, whether they're, you know, uh talking to their bosses, someone who's in charge of their employment about these changes, or with their boards or with their donors, they're taking the risk to try something different for kids and to change the way they've been serving. And um, it's incredibly encouraging, but I've also seen them face real challenges and trials. This is not easy work, right? And I think um sometimes we we think it will be like that story in the taxi, right? Like there'll be a moment and it will all be great. And but I've just seen the trial we all had. Beck, I know you have deeply seen men more examples of that not happening in the taxi than it happening. And it is it's hard work. And I think one of the things about being courageous is working through the trials and challenges and continuing forward as we pursue what's best for kids. Again, that central focus on this isn't about our model, this isn't about our ministry, this isn't about my job. The whole goal is that kids continue to move more and more towards thriving in the knowledge of the their their the deep love God has for them and desire to see them thrive. So I see people who've had children removed from their ready because of an accident. I've seen leaders who've been questioned by their board of their capability because of this, their boldness to change. I've seen people who've had to fire established staff members that were not able to get on board, or some of them, I've seen many actually get fired themselves. And that's the hardest is when they are pushed out. Um, and they're doing it because they believe it's what's best for kids. Um, so when there's challenge, when there's fears, when it's not going as well. One of the form formative experiences for me was um journeying with this church in the United States that had, I think, five different orphanage relationships across the world, big, big stuff. And they were getting it with me. We were learning together, they were, they were understanding, they were excited about doing something different, and we were making progress, starting to connect with local um people um in there in those countries to learn more. And then all of a sudden I stopped hearing for them, wouldn't answer my phone calls, wouldn't answer my email, and um they just went cold. And I didn't know until months later they'd hit a big snag and then they gave up and they just said, Ellie, it's not gonna work. Um, and that was heartbreaking for me and really uh has been guiding this desire that I think we all need to have an accompaniment. We need to have somebody journeying with us that's been down this road before. Um, I mean, just personally, if I can share a little bit about myself, I think God's been teaching me a lot about this that I tend to think if something's going wrong, God's doing it or he's punishing me, or um, you know, it's it's that it's something it's a bad sign. But uh I heard um a quote in a Bible study recently that said, um, failure is just the journey towards success with God. God, God wants you to succeed if you're truly seeking Him. Um, and He He wants to see children thrive. And so um in 2025, personally, Faith to Action and myself, we had the turmoil of the dramatic cuts of foreign aid, which led for us 40% decrease in our budget, um, losing employees. Um, and then not only that money going away, but the funding environment really got challenging where everyone was trying to figure out what to do. Um, and I was, I thought, you know, God's telling us we did something wrong. Or, you know, he he's doing this to us. And I know people who've been through this change who've boldly gone out to try to change the way they care for kids have had those moments. Um, but you know, we can when you persist, when you keep moving forward in faith, not out of, you know, uh defiance of what God might be leading you, that you can look back someday and see that God actually used that time in really powerful ways for faith to happen. That's very true. We saw individuals step up and do support us in ways they never would have imagined.

Money, Power, And Donor Responsibility

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Um, it's shaped me personally and my leadership and my faith. Um, but it's just a really it's an honor to be able to see all these organizations, these individuals take a risk and do it because they want to see children thrive and families and they're they're risking the emotional stress of that of that leadership, their relationships, their jobs to be able to do that. And I'm just incredibly encouraged by that. And I hope people out here, if they're facing a challenge, if they're pursuing this, don't give up. Keep moving forward.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

I heard a quote last year that um that I loved. Um, and it's something like an open door and a closed door are the same thing because they they each send you in a direction. Um, and it just helped me reframe that when when the door closes like that, when the thing that you were expecting and you were counting on and and and that you thought was how it was supposed to go, when that door closes, that's not necessarily the end of something, it's just a redirect. Um and I think that's kind of an important thing to keep in mind in this space.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Not everybody's gonna, you know, get in the taxi and say the thing you wanted to say. Pro. Hopefully you have those moments. I was gonna say, I really want to have that moment just once.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Like that would be amazing. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Well, I think there's you know, I I agree there are all of this, obviously, or as we're discussing, all of this takes courage. All change, change, any type of change takes courage, right? Because change makes 99.9% of people deeply uncomfortable. Our, you know, kind of biology is a little bit hardwired to say, unless the risks to not changing seem so great and imminent, we're gonna try everything we can to stay in that space of comfort. Um, and so that's what we're fighting against in really looking at these issues, examining the role that we may play in these systems that are unfortunately perpetuating the separation of children from their families and perpetuating unintended harms to these children. So we are talking about serious risks, but we don't always deep, we don't always directly feel those risks from the vantage point that we may have, particularly as someone who might be supporting this through, you know, going on a missions trip or volunteering or um being a church or a donor partner in another country. We might be able to hear about these risks and understand them intellectually or abstract, but we're not sensing, we're not feeling them. And so it doesn't create that kind of motivation in us to go, gosh, we really need to change. But we've got to sit with that. We've really got to look into that, we've really got to think about this from the perspective of children. And like Ellie said, whatever, whatever the consequences might be of doing the right thing, step that through with as much wisdom as you can, get as much support as you can. Um, do that in, you know, learning from others who've gone through that journey so that you minimize the number of obstacles in your way. Because even when you do that, trust me, there'll still be enough to keep you sleepness, sleepless some nights and cause you a decent amount of stress. So remove the ones you can, but you've still got to walk this road. Like we absolutely have to set our north compass on children. Um, we cannot allow all the other motivations. Being motivated by what makes you feel good when you give or when you support or when you get involved in these things, that's not wrong. But it can't be your compass. It cannot be your compass. How you feel about this cannot be your compass. We've got to remember that we are intervening. We're intervening in the life of somebody else. We're intervening in the way that we give. We have to make sure that intervention is in their best interest. Um, and so it cannot be oriented around how it makes us feel. And so where we we choose our pathway based upon comfort or discomfort. That's just not okay. We have to be honest enough to say that's not okay. Um, it has to be about this other person, which is the child and the family and the community in which they're situated. So I've had stacks of experiences where this has been costly for me, where this is, you know, caused a huge when I first started with my previous organization in a senior leadership role in an organization called ACC International, which is a faith-based development agency in Australia. We had lots of orphanages, both run by our field workers, run by our partners, funded by our network of over a thousand churches. We were like deeply embarrassed. And I came from the field. I came from working in Cambodia where we'd already moved away from that. We'd been developing foster care and family strengthening. And I came back to the headquarters and took on this role and was like, oh gosh, we've got quite a lot going on here around supporting orphanages. And I'll tell you the first day, what started the conversation of saying we can't do this anymore was um actually my husband, who's meet who's a media person, and he was working for ACC as well as doing their media, and he was asked to go overseas and do a media piece on an orphanage. And he said no. But he didn't say no to them, he said no to me. And because essentially his portfolio was under me. He's like, I won't do it. And I'm like, well, you go tell the bosses that you won't do it. And he's like, no, you do it because you need to have the bigger conversation. So I was like, great. So we're gonna both put our jobs on the line. And he's like, Yep, because I'm not filming that piece. I'm not filming a piece that is for the purpose of raising money to keep children separated from their families and in an orphanage. So I was like, great, okay, here we go. So I started the conversation and it was uncomfortable because I didn't know how anyone would react. And when I mean deeply invested, I mean deeply invested. Millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars have been raised through this organization for lots and lots of orphanages. Um, the chairperson at the time, very senior figure in the whole movement, had personally put his name out there to raise lots and lots and lots and lots of money. And that's who I had to have the conversations with. And the first conversations were really uncomfortable. And I'm trying to approach it with as much humility as I could, but I had to stay my ground and know that I don't actually know what the consequences of this conversation will be, but be them what they must be, because this has to change. And this is an organization that needs to take responsibility for the power that we hold in this story and use it for the right purposes. And so that started the process. And then after that, having conversations with lots of churches and pastors and supporters and the field workers, I had thrown stones thrown at me, you know, for good 12 months. I was getting calls daily of people saying all manner of things from you're taking faith out of this organization. You are aligning yourself with the Antichrist. I didn't even know that was a thing, you know, to start with. Like I got so many rocks thrown at me uh constantly for the first six to 12 months until we're able to help share share the narrative and really get people to understand what this was all about because everybody initially took it as threatening. And so the easy pathway would have probably been just to keep my head down or quit and go work somewhere else. But I was like, no, I have to, we have to change this. We have to turn this around. So super uncomfortable, lots of personal risk. But you know what? Still, the level of risk that I face was nowhere near the risk a child faces growing up in an orphanage, you know, facing the potential of lifelong implications due to the impacts of institutionalization. So my risks needed to be taken for the sake of you know reducing the very, very, very serious risks that children all around the world face when we won't take those set of risks in order to take this ship in a different direction.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 47:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

What I'm taking from this is where you kind of started, which is that it's kind of aligning yourself with the North Star of we're gonna do what we have to for the sake of children. Um, and whatever risks that you take, whatever you know you have to put on the line, has to be on the line because we don't deviate from the North Star. And that is something that takes radical courage. That is something that takes consistent, ongoing, persistent, resilient, radical courage in the face of, like you said, months of backlash, of fallout, of pushback, of you know, all of that. It's really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

I I think that north star, too, to maybe to bring a little cheer into the conversation so people don't quit, um, is that that kind of North Star piece, the the connection to the mission is what really drives people when we can get there, but we have to help people rediscover that. And there's this wise woman, her name is Laura Horvath, who talked about your experience, Laura. Uh we fell in love with our model instead of our mission. And once you were reminded of the mission, and once you can kind of peel away the layers, it can be a really positive place to meet people. Um, and you know, it's it's not always possible, but it can be. And so I think it's um incredibly important that in the good times we we use the opportunity to elevate the importance of children. I mean, just in our general knowledge or conversations, um, I almost in conversations I'll just constantly see, but like, because I know you do this because you care for the kids, right? And it's just like a part of the conversation, because there's we have to be reminded of what's more most important. Um, but also in the hard times, of course, keeping that as the North Star. Um, but wow, Beck, you're still here after all of that. And you didn't lose your jobs.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

I didn't lose my job, and it was a good story. It was a success story in the end, you know, the huge changes. Um, you know, field workers all over the world who were who were um operating residential care have gone, some of them are just um absolutely amazing people have gone on to not only shift their own service, but you know, be leading efforts around care reform more systematically in their country. So, you know, just that the whole process did end up being, you know, quite a great and exciting outcome. Not not in every not in every example and sense, but overarchingly, but you still have to walk through that first season. You still have to get through the valley to get to the other side, and that's it that takes the courage.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Yeah, I was thinking about the um there was one year that CAFO, which is called the Christian Alliance for Orphans, um, they have a conference. There was one year that for whatever reason they were being very cheeky, and I had two presentations. One was um me against someone else, like against, like that's how it was titled, and we're gonna duke it out. So that one was interesting, but at least people knew where I stand. The other one was a bait and switch, and it was called something like uh the reasons why you should keep your orphanage. And in the description, to be clear, I said we're gonna demystify the reasons why people think we need orphanages. Um, Delia Pop was a part of that as well. Um, so great partner in that. But wow, it was a challenge. And for for sure, especially when you're doing a group setting, when it's a speaker to a group, it's very hard to meet people where they're at because you don't know there's so many people in the room where they're at. And obviously, there were people who were angry. Um, my colleague Allison Umble was in the back and she was like, wow, Ellie, they were talking some smack about you. Um, but that's just one example. Like every single day, what we do is promote family-based care every day. And so every day there's somebody out there who has their entire life of ministry, their entire savings, their relationships, their full identity. And I'm sitting across from them asking them to consider what we're learning about what's working best for children. And I've had intense pushback. I've also had encouraging conversations like the taxi where we're like, yep, we've been thinking about this. How can you help us? Um, I think when we deal with that, for me, the harder, you know, it can feel I can feel anger or frustration in the moment, but I mostly feel disappointment when it doesn't go well when when it becomes me versus them, um, like it did in that room and that workshop at KFO. Um, but I think also because radical courage sometimes puts you in that place. And um, I've come to a place where I have to accept that I did my best and that I'm growing and I'm still evolving. I'll get I'll be get better. I'll get better at my temper, I'll get better at my compassion and all those things. But if I

The Cost Of Leading Change

SPEAKER_01 52:30

was, you know, kind and respectful and and honoring of who they were, that ultimately it's God that's working on them and that God is doing something and that whatever he's doing might include needing to hate me a little bit, and that the dissidence that we experience that people experience when they learn that there's another way to care for orphaned and vulnerable children, that's that's needed at some level. I'm not saying go out and make people mad. I hope no one hears me say that. But there is a point where you start to go, this is this is the ideal, and we're here. We're not there now. This separation, so I'm no one can see my hands. I have one higher and one lower. Like this is where we're at, but we want something higher. Like that's possible. And how do we get there? And when you realize that that doesn't feel good, um, but I think God works in it. So I have to kind of even as hard as those times are believe that God ultimately is the one that's going to transform their hearts and that I'll just continue to show up and show up with action.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

So I used to, um, I used to, I in my former life, I was a college professor and I taught teachers, I taught people how to teach. Um, and I used to tell the prospective teachers in my classroom that where learning happens is just outside your comfort zone. It can't be so far outside of your comfort comfort zone that you feel threatened or or in danger or at risk, but you have to be outside of that bubble a little bit for the relearning to grow or the relearning to happen. And then years after that, I had a pastor who used to say that he thought it was his job to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. And I think this, you know, place that we're trying to get people to, this um, meeting people where they are, but helping them to have a deeper, better understanding of what it takes to really care well for kids, is a little bit of afflicting the comfortable. It's a little bit of like, can I push you just outside the bubble of your comfort zone so that you can learn something you need to learn?

SPEAKER_04 54:39

That's so true. It is so true. And I think that goes across the space. Like, you know, one of the areas we haven't touched on is sometimes the what sustains the narrative can be the way organizations market, the way they present these stories. And often those stories are driven by what best connects with donors, what best um, you know, creates that heart connection with someone that will keep them, you know, keep them invested, keep them part of the story. And we and if organizations are looking at their storytelling and their marketing through that lens, they're going to gravitate to the comfort lane and they're not going to want to say, actually, this is communication, and there's a huge role of communication in changing this narrative and really showing it for what it is and telling the real story of these children. Like just, you know, so many times those stories are about an individual child. Where's where's their family? You know, no child exists in a bubble. Where's their family? But the absence of that is communicating, it's it's creating this sense of vulnerability that creates and elicits an emotional response in us that causes us to really want to give and support that child. But it's not the whole story. And I think, you know, challenging um some of those kinds of spaces, the marketing space, are really hard for organizations because that's your bread and butter, right? Now you're touching the bread and butter. Or in Asia we call it the rice pot. And so that that takes a lot of courage too, to be able to kind of shift some of those spaces in an organization that will enable a shift in practice in the long term is hard. I think the other, you know, quick thing I wanted to bring out too is the as we've sort of been saying, the lion's share of people who are involved, are involved for the right reasons, genuinely care for children and want to support children. And so we always start believing that and and you know, approaching these conversations with that um humble posture, the openness to learn from each other, but also the assumption that, you know, we're trying to engage people in a conversation that will help them to really think about how they can play their role in a way that better serves the children and the families that they are ultimately invested in. But there are a subset of people who will put their own motives ahead of children. And it also takes courage to know, to challenge that and to confront that component of this system. There is an element here, underlying parts of this system, that is about putting other vested interests, financial interests, status, positioning community ahead of what's in the best interest of children. That also needs to be courageously challenged. And that also can create risks. It can create risks in a partnership. If you are a donor partner and you do engage in these conversations, and through those conversations, you surface those kinds of motivations, you're gonna have to take a courageous decision. What are you gonna do about that? How will you use your responsibility towards these children in that moment? What how are you gonna pivot? If you realize that actually you might be involved in a story in a situation, unintentionally, that has some kind of complicated motives involved, how will you pivot in that situation? Um, and so I think there are those situations too where again, it takes a fair bit of courage. That stuff is hard. And just to finish on that note with a quick story of someone who's one of the most courageous people I've probably ever met in this line of work, an Australian couple, beautiful, beautiful couple who were um part of a very small group of donors who helped to set up and fund an orphanage in in Cambodia, and um heard the message around family care, really resonated with it, and then took that first courageous step of saying, we want to explore this more, we want to have the conversation, went down that pathway, 10 steps in, start engaging with their local partner who they loved and treated as family. And throughout this process, they really came it all, this information came out. And this was not a nice situation. This was a situation where children were being exploited, there was a lot of harm that had happened. I'm talking some pretty, pretty, pretty bad stuff. And this all came out. Talk about devastating for this couple who just poured their heart. I'm talking the amount of financial sacrifice they made to help this organization in Cambodia and the children within it. It was just next level. I'm not seeing very much that that is on par with with their level of sacrifice. And they were so courageous in the face of this. They were heartbroken, they were devastated, borderline, traumatized by what they discovered, but they chose not to walk away. They chose not to rewrite the story to make it easier to cope with. They chose to face it head on, they brought in the support that they needed, they stepped out an incredibly difficult process of unpacking what was happening, surfacing information, finding these children's family, reuniting them. It took a long time. It took a lot of resource, it was heartbreaking. Um, but they stayed their course. And I probably have never seen such an example of courage and North Star, never deviating from that North Star of whatever I have to face up to that has been part of what I've been involved in, whatever that means, whatever I have to do to make this right, I will do because this is not about me. This is about these children and their families.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Unfortunately, it's it is common that you start digging into this and you start finding things out, especially as a donor, and you start to realize this isn't what I thought it was, and you get pushback and you get lied to, and then um it's a common story. So it I think that is a really important example for all of us. Um to be able to, I mean, I when you have an industry that is worth more than $4.5 billion, right? That's what we have as a right. And but who's the commodity in this industry? What brings in the money? It's kids. So kids are gonna get used for the purposes of adults, and that's happening all over the world. Sometimes it's very blatant and sometimes it's more subtle. Um, but it we journey with a lot of people to figure out when they have tipped over that line. To now it's no, the trust is gone, and we've got to figure out how to get these kids in a safe situation because it's not black and white, it's gray for a while. And it takes people like Beck and others around the world who've been in those situations to be able to help and journey alongside each other because um we're not alone. You're not alone if you're experiencing that. So many people around the world have experienced similar things, and that's where that humility comes in to go, I'm in over my head. I want to walk away and um instead boldly continue to move forward, but join arms with others who have some experience in this space, have some tools, have who want to help. Um, so I'm I've been encouraged to see people do that. And hopefully it happens before it's a crisis um early on so we can avoid the problems um that others have have learned to avoid.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:52

For listeners who care about children and want to be part of meaningful reform, that that North Star for kids, what is one courageous next step you could invite them to take?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

I think we undervalue the importance of talking to people about this. Um so I just really encourage people to have a conversation with someone. It may be a friend, it may be your small group at church. You bring up, hey, I I listened to this podcast and I was thinking about this. What do you think? Um, it may be your church's missions pastor. Um I have a colleague who was working in care reform and their church was funding orphanages, and there was just this fear like this is my safe spiritual space. I can't go and uh confront the church. But um God was opening a door already. If He's put that person on your heart, there's already an opportunity to engage. So just encourage people, you know, over barbecue, over small group prayer time, invite people to have a conversation. And this isn't just a little thing you can do. Um we have to shift the cultural mindset that has fueled funding and volunteering in orphanages. So people in America at least, but I think in many countries think, oh, an orphan needs an orphanage. Simple, sounds right. And we have to help break that misconception and recognize what's the opposite of an orphan. That's that means a child without a family. The solution is family, right? Um Sarah Gazarig um used to be the executive director of Faith to Action. She'd always say, the Bible doesn't say keep an orphan an orphan. The goal isn't to keep them separated from family, it's to be a part of the solution, to bring them towards God's intention, which is was in creation before the fall, where it was it was family, right? It was the the relationships we have with God and with one another. And it was in Psalms we hear God sets the lonely in family. So um, yeah, I think it's important that we have these conversations because if we still, if in five years people still think, oh, an orphan needs an orphanage, um, just that simple idea, we'll still be dealing with the same problems that we're dealing with now, which is the perpetuation of a residential care model that is not appropriate for the children who are in those settings. And um just having a conversation can help. Of course, we'd love to see you fund this work. Billions of dollars have been cut from family strengthening efforts around the world from foreign aid from the US and the UK. It is not a time as a donor to back away. It is a time to lean in. Yes, markets are crazy and there's a lot of um insecurity. Um, gas prices are up, whatever. This isn't the time to abandon the most vulnerable. This is the time to lean in. Those of us who have that privilege to give, it's time. Now's the time to give.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:11

I would say, um, in addition to all the the great suggestions that Ellie has brought forward is to start by looking at what's in your hand. Everybody is situated somewhere. And the best way that you can use your power and privilege for good is by understanding where you're situated. So, what is your starting

Marketing, Motives, And Real Safeguarding

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

point? What's in your hand? If you are already involved with an orphanage somewhere in some capacity, then that's part of what's in your hand. There's a relationship there. There is an opportunity there. Use that to start to bring forward these kind of conversations. So I think it's a combination of what you have and the courage to do what you can with it that needs to be your guiding, you know, that what guides everybody's next step. And for some, exactly, that's going to be a conversation. Use your networks to raise awareness of this issue. For others, it's use your resources to give towards the change. For others, it's use your existing relationship with a residential care service somewhere to invite, you know, a conversation that may change and shift that model. If you sit inside of an organization and that your organization is either somehow already involved or could be involved in, you know, in helping to bring significant change, then look inside your organization structure, look at the power and positioning that you have and work out how that gives you opportunity and leverage to create change. Um, we all have something that we can bring to this table. And for some of us, it'll be huge, big levers that we have the capacity to pull that other people don't. So be bold enough to pull those, whatever they might be. And again, as you know, in line with the conversation, Jay, for some of you, that will be really uncomfortable. You might be sitting in a particular position where that means a lot of internal change in your own organization or your own church. If that's what's in your hand, that's that's what we bring to the table. And we must do that with with both humility and courage.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

All right, and the last question, I'm gonna put a little spin on it from our normal um spin, and that is where are you seeing signs of courage already and what gives you hope?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

I mean, I have been working in what we now call care reform. We didn't have that name when I started. Um not that long.

unknown 1:07:33

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

I think 2008. So you guys do the math. I'm not great with that. But the changes I've seen over the years are really exciting. There is progress. I'm not saying there aren't challenges. I have to remind myself to take the big picture, look at the big picture often. But, you know, we went from a time where um rarely could we, you know, have someone with an example of experience a full transition to now we have agencies dedicating to supporting transitioning organizations that are competing with each other for funding, like um new challenges, but we've there's there's incredible new opportunity. But to me, at the end of the day, the thing that motivates me is it has to be on the ground who's coming alongside that child in crisis or that family in crisis. And I get to hear stories, we collect stories. That's one of the things faith to action does because we want people to hear the stories. And um, one of the stories that I ran across again today as I was looking at our website, it was in Zimbabwe, was actually with Forgotten Voices, which unsadly isn't around anymore. But um, I was a teenager and she um her dad passed away. And uh in the emotional turmoil of that, her mom kind of disappeared. And so she was kind of living on her own. Her aunt was helping her out. Um, but her aunt already had multiple children and they were struggling themselves. Um, so she was, you know, at risk of moving to the city and finding a job that likely would not um allow her to thrive. Um, but there was a pastor, a local pastor, right? And um, Forgotten Voices worked alongside the local church around in Africa. And he'd been trained with Forgotten Voices and knew what to do when there was a family in crisis, learned that she her mother had run away and came alongside to visit and say, what is going on? So, what's going on? Where's your mother? Who's taking care of you? Started to bring the family together, um, and said, the church wants to help you guys. And that was a huge lift for the auntie and the challenges that she was in. So the church came around providing some of those like basic needs. Um, they started to support school fees. That was really important at that point that she didn't drop out of school, and just generally the community, like coming and visiting and uh women in the church building a relationship with the auntie. And eventually the auntie received training herself and also joined a support group that was a part of that program. And ultimately they're thriving now, right? That the that crisis could have led to something really terrible. But a a courageous local pastor stood up, and a courageous auntie stood up and said, We're not gonna let that happen. We're gonna we're gonna do what we have to do to ensure that she is taken care of and that she is able to grow up knowing the love that God has for her, the value that she has, and is able to pursue whatever life has for her. Um, so those are the kind of things that keep me moving. Um, but knowing that that is a result of so much work to be able to get to the point on the ground where you see these magic moments, people working really hard, the progress that's been made for decades to get to this point.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:17

Yeah. And I would add for me, I think there's actually lots of little bright spots all over the place. And there is a growing momentum from the top levels down to the very grassroots local levels. I think, you know, there is a sense of groundswell. You know, right now we have a global campaign around reforming children's care systems that is inviting governments to come together and set national commitments and, you know, and share with each other and really, you know, spur each other on to do this at a

One Courageous Next Step To Take

SPEAKER_04 1:11:50

global scale. There are countries coming out and making commitments to say we are intending on completely transforming our care systems and ending an era of children being institutionalized. We are going to radically reform and ensure that all children uh realize their right to grow up in a family. Um, and then doing the, you know, really hard work of systems change and setting up new services and all that comes with that to implement those commitments. You know, we're seeing um, you know, whole organizations that have um, you know, residential care all over the world coming out and saying we're gonna set up a whole initiative and a whole program to really bring change and reform the way that we're engaging and do this differently so that children and families benefit by being strengthened and being held together and provided what they need for that to be possible. So I think there's lots of kind of these bright spots where we're seeing people stand up and say, this is my sphere, and I'm gonna make, I'm making this commitment. I'm government, I'm making this commitment. I'm a civil society organization and I'm making this commitment. I'm a local church, this is my sphere, and I'm making this commitment. And then leaning into each other to really implement these commitments where we're starting to see the possibility of, you know, change, national change, global change around these things. But it does take everybody. It takes everybody in their unique positioning and vantage point to stand up and make the commitment that relates to their sphere and then really drive that forward. But we're seeing it, you know, we're we're seeing countries saying, you know, our value as an African culture, a particular African culture is for our children, they belong in families, our villages, raise our children, and having that boldness to stand up and say, no, this is actually what we want for our children, and directing that, you know, projecting that outwards to change the way people engage with their nation and around with their vulnerable children. And that's courageous. And so those kinds of moments where people stand out, make a commitment around the power that they hold and how they're going to use it differently, I think is incredibly encouraging. And it's a demonstration of courage, but it also gives us a lot of hope that this is an issue we can actually solve. There's lots of issues in the world we we look at and go, my goodness, is this a solvable issue? But this one actually is.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:10

Well, it's been really wonderful to have you both on the show. Thank you so much for making the time um and joining us with uh Optimistic Voices.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:19

Thank you for having us. It's been really fun. Thanks, Laura. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Yeah. All right. So to our audience, um, thank you again for listening in, for joining us on this episode. Um, we always say it's a big, messy world out there and there is no shortage of need. But we here at Optimistic Voices believe that with radical courage and radical collaboration, together we can change the world. Thanks.

Hope, Momentum, And Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_00 1:14:52

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can find us at Helping Children Worldwide on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook.